kb69
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by kb69 on Dec 21, 2017 21:34:35 GMT
Hi,
I'm thinking about completely transitioning to herbs after 1 year on ABX. I healed from Babesia (fingers crossed) with Mepron and Zith, and spent 10 months on oral ABX before my stomach revolted in August. I took a month break to address GI/immune system (gastritis, candida, adrenals, thryoid, etc).
2 months ago, I started Bicillin injections. Despite detoxing, the herxes have been the worst yet. I feel so toxic, my brain feels like it is on fire. After having good days last summer, I feel like I'm back to square one. Bicillin has really stirred up my neuro symptoms -- burning, tingling, inner vibration and anxiety. But, I also have more painful feet/soles and more ice pick headaches, which has me questioning whether it's stirred up Lyme, brought Bartonella (which I have yet to treat) or both (what a party!). I take many herbs -- milk thistle, cordyceps, gotu kola, eleuthero, hawthorn, ashwaghandha, rhodolia, holy basil, avena sativa, ginseng, burbur/pinella, JK, but most are for immune support. At least, besides JK, I don't think any of those are "Lyme/Co killers."
I consulted with an herbalist last week, and she prepared a tincture of uncaria rhynchophylla/Gou-Teng, skullcap, kudzu and motherwort. She plans to add the "other cat's claw" (uncaria tormentosa) at the next visit. But, she didn't initially prescribe anything for Bart, which I think I need.
QUESTIONS:
1. Will I lose ground by abandoning ABX and moving forward with herbs alone? Trav, I know you healed with herbs -- just looking for encouragement as I take this leap of faith.
2. With herbs, are blends okay? Would I be better off taking all of the herbs the herbalist mixed separately? This seems much easier, and I'm going really slowly -- only at 1 drop twice a day right now. If I were to add in Bart herbs like Sida or Houtt, it seems they should be separate (and maybe that is common practice).
3. Are all herbs subject to the "go low and slow" approach? Can all of them cause a herx? I just ordered Lion's Mane for my neuro lyme, and didn't know if it could cause a herx.
4. Wouldn't you want to treat Lyme and Bartonella together? Whether I stay on Bicillin or not, I don't see how I can make progress without addressing Bart at the same time.
I see my LLMD next week to discuss next steps with him. He supports herbs, and uses some, cryptolepis, samento/banderol and Byron White, but isn't a true herbalist. Having read Buhner, I feel like embracing that approach makes the most sense to me at this time. The herbalist I saw is Buhner savvy, among other approaches.
Sorry this is so long -- thanks for reading and for any thoughts on what you would do. I definitely feel like I'm at a crossroads with treatment.
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Post by Admin/ Traveler on Dec 21, 2017 22:23:36 GMT
Well, first of all, I'm so very sorry that your treatments have gone that way! I always hope that whatever treatment someone chooses to go with will work well for them, because the change over is nerve wracking! There simply are very few hard answers to a lot of the questions asked during that time.
Let's see what I can be of help with.....
QUESTIONS:
1. Will I lose ground by abandoning ABX and moving forward with herbs alone? Trav, I know you healed with herbs -- just looking for encouragement as I take this leap of faith.
2. With herbs, are blends okay? Would I be better off taking all of the herbs the herbalist mixed separately? This seems much easier, and I'm going really slowly -- only at 1 drop twice a day right now. If I were to add in Bart herbs like Sida or Houtt, it seems they should be separate (and maybe that is common practice).
3. Are all herbs subject to the "go low and slow" approach? Can all of them cause a herx? I just ordered Lion's Mane for my neuro lyme, and didn't know if it could cause a herx.
4. Wouldn't you want to treat Lyme and Bartonella together? Whether I stay on Bicillin or not, I don't see how I can make progress without addressing Bart at the same time.
1)If you can, start the herbs at low doses while the Bicillin is still in your system - that way, as the Bicillin "fades" in the body, the herbs will be there to help pick up the slack (so to speak). It's a leap of faith either way, but this should help.
2 & 3)Blends are actually preferred with herbs, as they often act synergistically (working together/off of each other) to help enhance their actions. With that said though - we generally encourage people to start new herbs one at a time to check for allergic reactions, and to keep the doses really low so the herxing stays more manageable. How that for complicated? LOL! A lot of it depends on how your body reacts to each herb - some can go up on doses and combining herbs quickly, while others, like me, have to take it all very slowly.
I would encourage you to start off on the low doses with Lion's mane as well. Again, you may be able to go up in dose size quickly, but it caused herxing for me to begin with (boy what a surprise that was!!) - which was all neuro issues!! And, since that's what you are having the most issues with, I would definitely encourage you to start on very low doses. I only take 1/4 tsp of the dried herb twice a day.
So, if you have a tincture of Lion's mane, Buhner suggests the dose of 1 tsp 3 - 4 times a day. Start with less than 5 drops once a day for at least 3 days to see how your body responds. Then slowly raise the dose every 2 or 3 days is how I would suggest starting it - again, I'm one of those that must stick to starting or raising doses very slowly, and I usually need to take longer between raising my doses. Watch for signs of increased herxing and either hold steady on the dose, or lower your dose back to the previous level and hold there until the herxing is under control again.
The beauty of herbs is that you have a lot more control over when and how much - plus you are working with your body, not just trying to do it's job for it. Your entire body will be involved in the killing and in the detoxing of toxins with herbs.
4)This would depend on the person. Some can't handle treating both infections, but I treated both infections (Lyme and Bart) at the same time and it worked really well for me, even though I had a heck of a time controlling the herxing (scared my doc too!!! LOL!). See, Lyme and Bartonella have a way of "playing off of" each other. Lyme can make Bart symptoms worse, and Bart can make the Lyme symptoms worse - especially the neuro issues.
Most of the herbs that you will be using will be in support of your body, as the main goal with herbs is to support the body to do the killing of the infections (basically, not completely) and to support those organs and systems in the body that are struggling because of the interference from the infections. A well functioning body can defeat these infections, which is why not everyone that gets Lyme needs extended treatments - but a body that is compromised simply doesn't have the ability to fight off such a crafty invader.
Well, I do hope that helps some!! I'm sure others will be along to post their comments soon as well. Be sure to keep asking questions - and remember there are NO silly or dumb questions!! If you don't know, please ask!!!
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kb69
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by kb69 on Dec 21, 2017 22:41:23 GMT
Well, first of all, I'm so very sorry that your treatments have gone that way! I always hope that whatever treatment someone chooses to go with will work well for them, because the change over is nerve wracking! There simply are very few hard answers to a lot of the questions asked during that time. Let's see what I can be of help with..... QUESTIONS: 1. Will I lose ground by abandoning ABX and moving forward with herbs alone? Trav, I know you healed with herbs -- just looking for encouragement as I take this leap of faith. 2. With herbs, are blends okay? Would I be better off taking all of the herbs the herbalist mixed separately? This seems much easier, and I'm going really slowly -- only at 1 drop twice a day right now. If I were to add in Bart herbs like Sida or Houtt, it seems they should be separate (and maybe that is common practice). 3. Are all herbs subject to the "go low and slow" approach? Can all of them cause a herx? I just ordered Lion's Mane for my neuro lyme, and didn't know if it could cause a herx. 4. Wouldn't you want to treat Lyme and Bartonella together? Whether I stay on Bicillin or not, I don't see how I can make progress without addressing Bart at the same time. 1)If you can, start the herbs at low doses while the Bicillin is still in your system - that way, as the Bicillin "fades" in the body, the herbs will be there to help pick up the slack (so to speak). It's a leap of faith either way, but this should help. 2 & 3)Blends are actually preferred with herbs, as they often act synergistically (working together/off of each other) to help enhance their actions. With that said though - we generally encourage people to start new herbs one at a time to check for allergic reactions, and to keep the doses really low so the herxing stays more manageable. How that for complicated? LOL! A lot of it depends on how your body reacts to each herb - some can go up on doses and combining herbs quickly, while others, like me, have to take it all very slowly. I would encourage you to start off on the low doses with Lion's mane as well. Again, you may be able to go up in dose size quickly, but it caused herxing for me to begin with (boy what a surprise that was!!) - which was all neuro issues!! And, since that's what you are having the most issues with, I would definitely encourage you to start on very low doses. I only take 1/4 tsp of the dried herb twice a day. So, if you have a tincture of Lion's mane, Buhner suggests the dose of 1 tsp 3 - 4 times a day. Start with less than 5 drops once a day for at least 3 days to see how your body responds. Then slowly raise the dose every 2 or 3 days is how I would suggest starting it - again, I'm one of those that must stick to starting or raising doses very slowly, and I usually need to take longer between raising my doses. Watch for signs of increased herxing and either hold steady on the dose, or lower your dose back to the previous level and hold there until the herxing is under control again. The beauty of herbs is that you have a lot more control over when and how much - plus you are working with your body, not just trying to do it's job for it. Your entire body will be involved in the killing and in the detoxing of toxins with herbs. 4)This would depend on the person. Some can't handle treating both infections, but I treated both infections (Lyme and Bart) at the same time and it worked really well for me, even though I had a heck of a time controlling the herxing (scared my doc too!!! LOL!). See, Lyme and Bartonella have a way of "playing off of" each other. Lyme can make Bart symptoms worse, and Bart can make the Lyme symptoms worse - especially the neuro issues. Most of the herbs that you will be using will be in support of your body, as the main goal with herbs is to support the body to do the killing of the infections (basically, not completely) and to support those organs and systems in the body that are struggling because of the interference from the infections. A well functioning body can defeat these infections, which is why not everyone that gets Lyme needs extended treatments - but a body that is compromised simply doesn't have the ability to fight off such a crafty invader. Well, I do hope that helps some!! I'm sure others will be along to post their comments soon as well. Be sure to keep asking questions - and remember there are NO silly or dumb questions!! If you don't know, please ask!!! Trav, this is all so helpful. Thank you so much. On top of being sick, it's so exhausting constantly trying to figure this stuff out -- even with a good LLMD as a partner as you just don't have hours on end to bounce ideas/questions off them. We all need a Lyme mentor! Your comment, "The beauty of herbs is that you have a lot more control over when and how much - plus you are working with your body, not just trying to do it's job for it," is part of the reason why I'm looking to transition completely. Since I can't taper or pause the Bicillin injection once it's administered, there isn't a lot of control. At least with orals, you can cut back or stop for a few days. And, that "working with your body part," isn't there something inherently less toxic about herbals? It's exactly because my neuro symptoms are so bad that I think I need to address Bart at the same time as Lyme. I always thought Dr. H. and others talked about "why you can't get better" being a result of co-infections inhibiting your ability to combat Lyme. So, I questioned whether one could really treat Lyme outright without going after co-infections at the same time. I appreciate the word of caution on Lion's Mane. I will start slowly on that one. And, I will continue to move up my dosage on the Lyme tincture every few days, that's good guidance. I'm probably being too cautious right now, starting at 1 drop x day, and only being at 2 x day after a week. When you endure those mega-herxes, it really scares you.
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Post by Admin/ Traveler on Dec 22, 2017 17:11:39 GMT
You said it, KB!! Once someone has gone through a mega herx (as you so aptly put it), it really changes the way you look at them, and the way you approach the herbs/meds! That's what got me too - a year long herx, that included so very many very scary symptoms - including seizures and late stage dementia symptoms that took me years to come out of. I realize that herxing is not a good thing for the body - and that severe herxing is not only scary, but very dangerous!! We can't avoid all herxing, but we can sure keep it under control.
Well, herbals are all natural, instead of being created in a lab. Where the real benefit comes in is using only whole herbs, as most herbs do have other constituents that help counter serious side effects - and that's why I stick to whole herbs. I don't do extracts of herbs, although I will use tinctures as long as they are made from whole herbs. I may have to change my stance on that at some point in time, but for now, I use nothing but whole herbs - and my schooling is backing up the need to stick with whole herbs at this point in time.
Anything created in a lab won't work as well as something that is 100% natural - that's just the nature of the body. This doesn't mean that pharma doesn't work well, as we see it does every day - but for certain things. Western Medicine has never had a good stance on chronic illnesses, and chronic Lyme is definitely one of those areas.
There are always exceptions to the rule though - for example, I rely heavily on DHEA, but I'm highly allergic to soy, so I can't use the natural soy based products and must rely on manufactured DHEA.
Generally speaking, herbs work with the body to correct imbalances, instead of forcing changes with chemicals. For me the difference was plain as day - Lyme abx was like using an atom bomb in my body, whereas the herbs were like coaxing a child to do something with cookies. LOL. It was night and day difference. Not everyone sees this much difference, but I sure did!
As I said, I treated both Lyme and Bart at the same time, and it was the only way I was going to make it through both treatments. Because I had been in treatment previously for Lyme only, I knew that Lyme only treatments would make my Bart symptoms flare badly - and assumed that Bart only treatments would make either my neuro Lyme or all Lyme symptoms worse. I just couldn't face the possibility of another severe herx to go through - at that point, I would have rather died from my infections than to go through that again.
I feel like the person that lives in that body is the only one to truly know what that body is 'saying' - we just have to learn to speak the same "language". I really like helping others figure out how to understand what their body is telling them, because it really changes the 'game' - suddenly, you can figure a lot of stuff out on your own as long as you have someone to talk things over with that also knows what they are doing. The beauty of forums!!!
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kb69
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by kb69 on Dec 22, 2017 17:59:36 GMT
You said it, KB!! Once someone has gone through a mega herx (as you so aptly put it), it really changes the way you look at them, and the way you approach the herbs/meds! That's what got me too - a year long herx, that included so very many very scary symptoms - including seizures and late stage dementia symptoms that took me years to come out of. I realize that herxing is not a good thing for the body - and that severe herxing is not only scary, but very dangerous!! We can't avoid all herxing, but we can sure keep it under control. Well, herbals are all natural, instead of being created in a lab. Where the real benefit comes in is using only whole herbs, as most herbs do have other constituents that help counter serious side effects - and that's why I stick to whole herbs. I don't do extracts of herbs, although I will use tinctures as long as they are made from whole herbs. I may have to change my stance on that at some point in time, but for now, I use nothing but whole herbs - and my schooling is backing up the need to stick with whole herbs at this point in time. Anything created in a lab won't work as well as something that is 100% natural - that's just the nature of the body. This doesn't mean that pharma doesn't work well, as we see it does every day - but for certain things. Western Medicine has never had a good stance on chronic illnesses, and chronic Lyme is definitely one of those areas. There are always exceptions to the rule though - for example, I rely heavily on DHEA, but I'm highly allergic to soy, so I can't use the natural soy based products and must rely on manufactured DHEA. Generally speaking, herbs work with the body to correct imbalances, instead of forcing changes with chemicals. For me the difference was plain as day - Lyme abx was like using an atom bomb in my body, whereas the herbs were like coaxing a child to do something with cookies. LOL. It was night and day difference. Not everyone sees this much difference, but I sure did! As I said, I treated both Lyme and Bart at the same time, and it was the only way I was going to make it through both treatments. Because I had been in treatment previously for Lyme only, I knew that Lyme only treatments would make my Bart symptoms flare badly - and assumed that Bart only treatments would make either my neuro Lyme or all Lyme symptoms worse. I just couldn't face the possibility of another severe herx to go through - at that point, I would have rather died from my infections than to go through that again. I feel like the person that lives in that body is the only one to truly know what that body is 'saying' - we just have to learn to speak the same "language". I really like helping others figure out how to understand what their body is telling them, because it really changes the 'game' - suddenly, you can figure a lot of stuff out on your own as long as you have someone to talk things over with that also knows what they are doing. The beauty of forums!!! Like you, Trav, I'm beginning to feel like ABX are just too toxic for me. It's like a downpour of treatment, when I just need a steady rain. Coaxing the child to do something -- I love that reference. I feel like that's the approach I need to take (or at least try) at this point. When I take ABX, I always start at the lowest possible dose and even doing that, with some ABX, I will still herx. With herbs, I've never had an issue starting low. My body accepts them from the beginning, and it's just the ramping up process that I need to manage. You've really helped me figure a lot of this stuff out, and I'm so appreciative for that. I met with my acupuncturist today, and had a really good treatment that included cupping. I'm going to keep seeing him twice/month as I think it can help if I go regularly. He also mentioned, as he is a practitioner of TCM, that he could work with me using Chinese herbs. I'll probably stick with the herbalist I've seen for now, but I think it just goes to show that there are a lot options and that has me feeling more hopeful should I abandon the Bicillin altogether. Thanks for being a positive voice in support of herbal treatments, too. Even though I've read Buhner and so many other resources re: the power of herbs, big Pharma has just poisoned my brain into thinking that synthetic drugs are the only thing that can make you well. I know better, but hearing you and others speak to the efficacy of herbs really does help. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Kelly
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Post by Admin/ Traveler on Dec 22, 2017 19:59:18 GMT
Like you, Trav, I'm beginning to feel like ABX are just too toxic for me. It's like a downpour of treatment, when I just need a steady rain. Coaxing the child to do something -- I love that reference. I feel like that's the approach I need to take (or at least try) at this point. When I take ABX, I always start at the lowest possible dose and even doing that, with some ABX, I will still herx. With herbs, I've never had an issue starting low. My body accepts them from the beginning, and it's just the ramping up process that I need to manage. You've really helped me figure a lot of this stuff out, and I'm so appreciative for that. I met with my acupuncturist today, and had a really good treatment that included cupping. I'm going to keep seeing him twice/month as I think it can help if I go regularly. He also mentioned, as he is a practitioner of TCM, that he could work with me using Chinese herbs. I'll probably stick with the herbalist I've seen for now, but I think it just goes to show that there are a lot options and that has me feeling more hopeful should I abandon the Bicillin altogether. Thanks for being a positive voice in support of herbal treatments, too. Even though I've read Buhner and so many other resources re: the power of herbs, big Pharma has just poisoned my brain into thinking that synthetic drugs are the only thing that can make you well. I know better, but hearing you and others speak to the efficacy of herbs really does help. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Kelly [/quote] I hope your Christmas is filled with love and peace, Kelly!!! The real beauty of herbs is they can often be used in conjunction with pharma meds/abx so you can get the benefit of both - but the hard part is finding someone that can help you balance everything, as there are herbs that should not be taken with certain medications, simply because they can act as potentiators (increasing the actions of the drug), which can be harmful for some. Honestly, I think nearly all of society is brain washed as you said - it was the whole purpose of sending drug makers to Washington DC for lobbying! But, now there is a concerted effort to 'defame' and even remove some natural meds/herbs. The UK has been leading the push to remove homeopathics lately - and the US is following suit. No matter what people think of homeopathics, it really is the first step in trying to remove all natural meds from the marketplace - so we do need to start objecting, and LOUDLY, that these meds are NOT harmful and have been around since the 1800's helping people. Herbs have been successfully used to medically treat people since around 3,000 BC - and pharmaceuticals??? Well, they've only been used for the past 100 years. And they are NOT always superior, as many have found out. Ohhh!!! I LOVED my cupping experiences!! I really did feel a difference! I do hope that you begin to feel how much they help too, if you don't already! I mean, yeah, my skin was a little sensitive after the first few times - but the benefit was not to be denied. LOL. Take it slow with the TCM doc - see if they would be willing to just help you with detoxing and balancing out your body - or whatever you are comfortable with, and only when you are comfortable (or see you need it). I honestly wish I knew more about the pharma side of treatments for these infections, it would round out my understanding so much more - but learning the herbs has taken every last free minute I have (and I don't really get a lot of those!), so for now, I'm content with dealing with only the herbs. Hopefully I will have the opportunity to learn more. I'm very happy (and humbled) that I have been of help to you!! Please do keep us posted on how you are doing!!!
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